View Single Post
#39
12-05-2014, 09:35 AM
Senior Member
From Los Angeles
Joined in Jan 2007
1,044 posts
drvenom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Severity View Post

Now onto the analogy of the car, I see what you're trying to describe , but what's the concept of "ideas"? Why is there a need for an intelligent being to manipulate matter? Is it really that wrong to think that matter was always present? We're limited by our ideas , like for something to exist it first has to be created.

For us to truly understand the beggining of everything, we have to let go of the comfort of our way of thinking, what is "always true" and what isn't. Whatever logic we've constructed is just that, what we've constructed. These concepts came much after the beggining of the universe.

Also for this all knowing being that is being portrayed as god to "make humans to his image" is a bit weird to me. Didn't humans evolve from other organisms? Is there a "bacterial Jesus" or a "fish jesus"? Why are we so egotistical? Why do we need this all powerful being to be so invested in us?

Until I know more I won't sign up to say I know something is true. It doesn't make sense to me.
These are wonderful points that you bring up. First let me talk about logic and reason. Everything, and I mean everything that we study is all dependent on logic and reason... I mean everything. Without reason and logic, we can't even do things like science. Having said this, I can now address your other points.

Why is there a need for an intelligent being to manipulate matter?

There is no need, that just seems to be one of a few reasonable explanation when we try to explain the reason for the existence of the universe. How you might ask? Well, I think the Kalam cosmological argument does a good job at explaining that. You might say that's just logic, and, logic is just some silly thing we created. The thing is that if you say that then you would be discrediting everything else that we have based on logic, including science.

And you could be right, maybe the universe did come to be out of nothing and it is eternal in the past. However, because everything that we know of seems to have a cause and a beginning, the burden of proof would be on the person making the claim that the universe is eternal in the past and that it has no cause.

Now about God making humans in his image. This is a Christian believe and not one that is generally held by all religions. Hence, I will answer it to the best of my ability from a Christian point of view. What makes you think that to say that he made us in his image speaks of a physical form? Maybe that means that he made us in his image in the sense that we would be able to recognize the concept of love and morality.

And, evolution is in no way in conflict with the idea of the universe having a creator. Evolution only tells you how organisms already created eventually evolve. Evolution does not tell you how such organisms came to exist nor their reason for being.

And why do we need this being to be so invested in us...? Well, this is only true of some religions. Suppose the universe was created, then for all we know this creator could be an asshole for all we know. Now, the worldview that I hold (Christianity) stipulates that this God is a personal God. This is the reason that I believe this God is so vested in us. But again, this is not just based on some illusion. There have been many studies on the topic and they, in my opinion, seem rational; here is a video of a talk at UCSB university on the historicity of Jesus .

And you are right, you shouldn't sign up for something that you don't believe to be rational. I think that Christianity is rational (mere Christianity) and true based on rational investigation.
__________________
Year arrived and age at time of arrival: 1989, 8
Education level: Two Master's (Econ and Math); Can't afford a PhD.
DACA: I was too old by 5 days.
Expanded Daca: I should be good now.
Bitter? Optimistic
Last edited by drvenom; 12-05-2014 at 10:01 AM..
Post your reply or quote more messages.