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DAP Forums > DREAM Act > The Lounge

Some of these immigration rallies aren't helping.

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#1
05-04-2010, 02:20 AM
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Hey guys,

I just recently signed up to give my 2 cents on this matter. First of all I'm in the same boat as you guys are. I was brought here when I was 7 years old, so I'm pretty much screwed too. Anyway, while browsing on youtube, I came across these two videos which kind of pissed me off. Here are two immigration rallies, one in LA and the other in Atlanta GA. In the Atlanta one they were passing around pro communist flyers, and writing Jim crow this and Nazi that (Really, I mean, these people aren't being oppressed like the African Americans during the REAL Jim crow laws, or the Jews in Nazi Europe). Also, in the communist flyers, they write the need for a revolution. I thought the Tea Parties were bad but I found it kind of comical seeing their signs that read "Socialist, Nazi, Marxist, whateverist" lol. But this something else. This doesn't help the cause at all when Americans add pro-commie to their list of reasons for hating immigrants.

In the second vid, there's these people shouting "We are the communist... fighting for a better world". Then, when some guy disagrees with them, they start chasing him and calling him racist (I'm not defending the guy, for all I know he could be a racist, but don't hit him and chase him like a crazy mob. You got to be above that). Again, none of this is helping. This is why I don't think I'm ever going to one of these rallies. Not when I'm lumped together with some idiots with communist and Jim crow signs.

Anyway, I just wanted to know if anyone else thinks this way because, honestly, there needs to be better organized rallies with better goals. Oh, and I know this is TL;DR

Edit: Oh and here are the vids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LHRz...=ytn%3Amptnews

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s72Br...=ytn%3Amptnews
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#2
05-04-2010, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American885 View Post
In the Atlanta one they were passing around pro communist flyers, and writing Jim crow this and Nazi that (Really, I mean, these people aren't being oppressed like the African Americans during the REAL Jim crow laws, or the Jews in Nazi Europe).
The current legal situation of the undocumented may not be exactly analogous to
the Jim Crow laws of the south, but in many ways they are analogous to the Black Codes enacted in the South after the Civil War, which were based on the Slave Codes of the ante-bellum period. These laws restricted where people could work and what occupations they could work in, regulated and prohibited the easy movement of slaves in the south, prevented blacks from becoming educated, and even placed restrictions on who they could marry. If that doesn't describe the condition of undocumented people in this country, I don't know what does.

Moreover, this situation does have the potential to be a civil-rights issue just like Jim Crow before the 1960s, because as in that earlier case, the politicians do not want to take on this issue because it might force them to lose voters. If the lesson from that situation is anything to learn from, that suggests we could continue to live like this for nearly 100 years before the government would act on this issue. In addition, if the states continue to pass repressive laws, and the extreme right continues to get its way, it will become like Jim Crow: anybody who hears of the proposals on the right to strip children of their US citizenship if they were born of illegal parents in this country would see this immediately.

Finally, this rhetoric is exactly the rhetoric of the Right: talking about death panels, Obama is Hitler, socialized medicine, etc. I agree that in protests I would hope that people on our side would be on their best behavior and be mindful of actions that might offend the people we need to convince, but unfortunately when you get large numbers of people together, it is difficult to get them to act the way you want them to.
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#3
05-05-2010, 03:06 AM
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[quote=melpw;157822]This specific party is well known , theyre called the rcp which stand for revolutionary communist party , they are on the left of anti capitalists oragnizations/parties. Im a socialist , there is no party for us and theres never been a truly socialist country as it some aspects it would require a global socialist system like we now have a global capitalist system. Im part of socialist alternative(thats for the US, though we're part of a bigger organization that is in 33 countries around the world called CWI) , this orgizations though we agree with many things the rcp has to say like yes we believe we need a revolution, a global one in fact but it doesnt have to start that way, from the masses of workers been exploited by this capitalist system , we dont believe in the way the say it, we're not comunnists and we dont follow a leader like they do and we dont like how they dont always have the workers interest as their #1 priority. The RCPs leader is bob avakian. The reason you and I and here is because of capitalism and in a global socialist world there would be no such thing as an illegal anywhere(im sure you want to know how and why).Also another reason the rcp is kind of failure is that they turn off people like you who should be the ones advocating for this revolution , the workers of this world. socialism, capitalism, and communism are all very different and it takes a while to understand each other , specially whats a true form of one. This saturday SA will be having an awesome conference here in seattle , cindy sheehan , matt gonzales will be speaking against this exact subject capitalism vs socialism, and the obama administration, at the end a socialist from our branch will be debating a prominent tea party leader. we're getting it on tape so I would love to pass that on to you after we get it up on you tube. please ask questions about this stuff and i understand its alot to take in when you realize the truth of the source of all the problems in the world. I know the rcp made themselves look like a bunch of loonies but learn more about the subject, educate yourself on it . also let me know if you want more info about SA, there are in most states in most states!
**omg i wrote that before i even saw the video, wow the lady speaking is the most disengenuine or the most ignorant human to walk this earth. i couldnt even watch the whole thing, but basically as far as i saw i agreed with every sign, theyre not saying jim crow is here they saying at the pace we're going we're going to end up there, and calling for a revolution is not "radical", a peaceful revolution of millions of people to stablish a socialist democracy in this country , is the most proactive thing someone could do for their country and for humanity. i know thats a broad term but there is a defenition for this , just ask!

/QUOTE]
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#4
05-06-2010, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jelly Bean Lover View Post
The current legal situation of the undocumented may not be exactly analogous to
the Jim Crow laws of the south, but in many ways they are analogous to the Black Codes enacted in the South after the Civil War, which were based on the Slave Codes of the ante-bellum period. These laws restricted where people could work and what occupations they could work in, regulated and prohibited the easy movement of slaves in the south, prevented blacks from becoming educated, and even placed restrictions on who they could marry. If that doesn't describe the condition of undocumented people in this country, I don't know what does.

Moreover, this situation does have the potential to be a civil-rights issue just like Jim Crow before the 1960s, because as in that earlier case, the politicians do not want to take on this issue because it might force them to lose voters. If the lesson from that situation is anything to learn from, that suggests we could continue to live like this for nearly 100 years before the government would act on this issue. In addition, if the states continue to pass repressive laws, and the extreme right continues to get its way, it will become like Jim Crow: anybody who hears of the proposals on the right to strip children of their US citizenship if they were born of illegal parents in this country would see this immediately.

Finally, this rhetoric is exactly the rhetoric of the Right: talking about death panels, Obama is Hitler, socialized medicine, etc. I agree that in protests I would hope that people on our side would be on their best behavior and be mindful of actions that might offend the people we need to convince, but unfortunately when you get large numbers of people together, it is difficult to get them to act the way you want them to.
Don't you think it is unfair to compare undocumented immigrants to the history of slavery, Africans brought here by force against their will. Most undocumented come here because of free will, and technically they can leave whenever they want to any place in the world that will have them. I agree that the momentum in thinking is shifting towards the right, but to compare Obama to Hitler is making a mockery of history. I went to one immigration rally in DC, and it was actually pretty normal, I did not feel it was too biased or political.
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#5
05-06-2010, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midtownhm View Post
Don't you think it is unfair to compare undocumented immigrants to the history of slavery, Africans brought here by force against their will. Most undocumented come here because of free will, and technically they can leave whenever they want to any place in the world that will have them. I agree that the momentum in thinking is shifting towards the right, but to compare Obama to Hitler is making a mockery of history. I went to one immigration rally in DC, and it was actually pretty normal, I did not feel it was too biased or political.
I don't think it is unfair at all (and, by the way, I was thinking more of the period after emancipation when the black codes were written, which were largely modeled after the old slave codes of the antebellum period). The only reason this does not seem like as major of a civil-rights problem is because we are living right now. Most people accepted the black codes just as most people now accept the unfair immigration system.

But the principle, especially for people on this forum, is fairly the similar. Most of the people here on the DAP are born into a situation, they were brought here without acquiescing in the process, and their civil rights are very restricted because of the way the laws are written (again can't find good jobs, get an education, mover around the country freely, marry freely, etc.) Moreover, I think it is easier said than done to say you can go back whenever you want--i.e., if you never knew any other country than the United States. I guess the main difference was that the black codes were unconstitutional state measures enacted against the laws established by the federal government. Nowadays, it is the federal government that turns a blind eye to the treatment of the modern day under-class.

Beyond that, slavery was an economic institution based upon the principle of utilizing cheap labor. After slavery was ended, the black codes kept blacks in a situation where they had to provide cheap labor. And this is the fundamental reality behind the immigration problem now--cheap labor.

Finally, the current immigration system goes fundamentally against the immigration policy established by the founding fathers right after the constitution was written--and the open immigration system practiced for most (but not all) racial groups throughout American history. The first naturalization law basically said you only needed to be living in the country for two years to apply for citizenship, and it did not matter how you got here (there was no such thing as a green card or legal papers--people who wanted to immigrate could just come and become citizens after two years). In the middle of the 1790s the founding fathers made it more difficult to become naturalized, because they changed the requirement to living here for five years instead of two (again without such an idea as papers or coming here "legally"). Nevertheless, to say that people who now have citizenship come from ancestors who came here more legally than people that have come here recently is not borne out by history.
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#6
05-07-2010, 09:58 AM
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You are comparing two different periods in history. The world is globalized now with billions of people able to move around thanks to planes and cheap travel. Of course we can not have the same laws when there were cowboys and Indians shooting it out in the 1790s. The world has changed, America is still a pretty good place in terms of freedom. I mean if you were undocumented immigrant in Europe (where I am from), you would be kicked out very fast, not like here, immigration rallies/etc.
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#7
05-08-2010, 12:17 PM
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i agree to some extent. last thing a lot of americans want to see are the foreign flags being waved and foreign chants.
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#8
05-08-2010, 12:34 PM
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I see it the same way. The last thing we want to do is be compared to the tea party people or any extremist group. Also, we don't want any talk on the media other than our cause, anything else hurts our efforts. The last thing we'd like to see is the same debate that developed here, and I mean no offense at all.
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#9
05-10-2010, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDREAMthereforeIACT View Post
I see it the same way. The last thing we want to do is be compared to the tea party people or any extremist group. Also, we don't want any talk on the media other than our cause, anything else hurts our efforts. The last thing we'd like to see is the same debate that developed here, and I mean no offense at all.
hahaha are you kidding me? we are the same as the slaves, we are the cheap labor that the slaves where. no they cant whip us and sell as at the market but we are under extreme oppression and the more obama doesnt target imigration reform the more hate we will experience. they brought the salves here by force, illegals come by force when the u.s destroys and exploist our home countries natural resources which causes mass poverty. maybe you didnt give up your life to be here but thousands maybe even millions of latino farmers and workers did. we need a revolution!
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#10
05-10-2010, 11:26 PM
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I was not going to respond again, because I felt like the thread was getting kind of tired, but because people have continued to post, here are my responses:

Quote:
Originally Posted by midtownhm View Post
You are comparing two different periods in history. The world is globalized now with billions of people able to move around thanks to planes and cheap travel.
Uh, actually the world has been globalized since 1492. Moreover, I was talking about the period after the Civil War, when the Black Codes continued to force people into a position of servile labor legally, without the institution of slavery. This period was very modern. It was when modern transportation--the Railroad--cut down the speed of traveling across the country, when the telegraph made communication instantaneous, even across the ocean. It created the modern global world you are thinking of. The world we live in now is very similar to the world at the end of the 19th century, except that there should be enough social progress now to recognize real civil-rights abuses when we see them--i.e., to call a spade a spade.

Quote:
Of course we can not have the same laws when there were cowboys and Indians shooting it out in the 1790s.
There were no cowboys in the 1790s, man. Cowboys were after the Civil War. Besides, we still have the same constitution. If the Founding Fathers knew what they were doing in crafting a government, it is a good bet they knew something about how to define citizenship.

Quote:
The world has changed, America is still a pretty good place in terms of freedom.
I agree wholeheartedly.

Quote:
I mean if you were undocumented immigrant in Europe (where I am from), you would be kicked out very fast, not like here, immigration rallies/etc.
That was exactly my point. America has always defined citizenship differently than the rest of the world. In Mexico, it is a felony to be undocumented and it is punishable by two years in prison. In Germany, it would never matter how much I tried to assimilate, I would have a really hard time getting citizenship because I don't have German parents. This is the way the rest of the world thinks: you have to have the right blood to have rights. This has not really been the case historically in the United States--with a few exceptions, e.g., Asians were assed out for citizenship till after WWII--until relatively recent times when all the restrictionist immigration and citizenship policy became the rule of the land.

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i agree to some extent. last thing a lot of americans want to see are the foreign flags being waved and foreign chants.
I don't remember anybody saying we should wave foreign flags here. On the contrary, I think we should only wave American flags if we go out to rallies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IDREAMthereforeIACT View Post
I see it the same way. The last thing we want to do is be compared to the tea party people or any extremist group. Also, we don't want any talk on the media other than our cause, anything else hurts our efforts. The last thing we'd like to see is the same debate that developed here, and I mean no offense at all.
How is it extreme to call this a civil-rights issue? I never said we should call Obama Hitler, nor did I say we should call Arizonans Nazis. All I said is that the situation of undocumented people nowadays bears an eery resemblance to the position of blacks in the south after the Civil War, and it really does. Moreover, that is not an ahistorical case to make--I have presented facts for it, and it is a very rational comparison to make.

I just don't understand fearing to have a real debate on this issue. If we can't have any faith in the justice of our own cause, how can we hope to bring people around who support the Arizona law and all the rest of the xenophobia that seems to be rampant in this country. We might as well give up and say deportation is the best solution to the immigration problem in this country--an call it a day.
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