I can't relate to most "Dreamers" in the media. - Page 3

Sorry, but that's an overly simplistic view of physicians. Most practicing physicians have clinical, laboratory, and lecture hall duties. Although I agree with your general idea (read above), your example isn't representative of actual doctors. A lot of people enter the field with the intent to gain money or sometimes pure love for knowledge, but most of the former gets filtered out in their undergraduate years, anyway.

Short and sweet, you can be an intellectual overachiever or an overachiever who simply wants to "make the grade". Between those two, the former is preferable. Nonetheless, an overachiever always dwarfs an underachiever, even if the underachiever claims to have talent but doesn't bother to use it.

In high school, I noticed a lot of people who always claimed, "I can be smart and bright but I just don't feel like it." Either that or they just said they hated school. They always said that someday, they'll be just like every other hard-working student and earn good grades. It's just that for the time being, they had to indulge themselves in meaningless short-term thrills. They were too busy wasting their precious days over nothing. No matter how old they were, they always continued claiming that they haven't woken up yet or haven't found motivation to succeed. The thing is that they'll always keep continue telling themselves that until they age and later realize that the only thing that could have brought a change was themselves. They were too busy waiting for it to be spoon-fed to their mouths.

However, what's the point if you have no discipline and focus? One of the main purposes of pre-university education is to weed out the students who have no discipline. I'm tired of people claiming to be lazy geniuses; lazy geniuses do exist, but it's no use when there are hard-working geniuses in the pool as well.

Of course, there are also people who don't care for academia at all. They are admirable as they at least know what they want. It's a prettier sight when you see someone who runs his or her own little cute café or restaurant but at least enjoys his or her work. I believe a lot of people feel pressured to forcefully pursue higher education because everyone else is entering universities too. However, school is not the thing for everyone.

And can we please stop referencing to Noam Chomsky? It's as old, jaded, and cliché as using Bill Gates or Albert Einstein (although they were great people).

ThespianDreamer i like to express my gratitude for your moving story because, as of today, your story convinced me to join DAP; something I hope I will continue to do so. I wanted to respond to your story and completely agree that not all Dreamers are highly "overachievers" including myself. And there is nothing wrong with that but that shouldn't stop you from living your life happily. Sure things have gotten far worse for illegal immigrants even more after 9/11 but I continue to find hope/inspiration because it's a matter of time before we call all breath freely. We are human beings and only ask to secure our positions in American society as legal residents. Kudos to the "overachievers" because they are only helping our cause but do know that many people will benefit greatly with any immigration reform let alone the Dream Act. For now do not let your status defined who you are because you are worth more than that. Don't let it get over your head; life is too precious to waste. It's only a matter of time.

A so-called "Over Achiever" is like a Multi-million selling Grammy-award winning pop star. The numbers may be on their side, but we all know most of them are shallow and ephemeral garbage. I am not saying that everyone who gets a 4.5 GPA is necessarily shallow, but if they think that makes them geniuses or somehow better than people who don't have an impressive GPA, than they are sadly mistaken. Most people who have contributed to the advancement of humanity began their real education very early in life and never stopped educating themselves. They only got through school because of family or social pressure or because you need a degree to get a job in certain fields.

I guess what am trying to say is, sure having a 4.5GPA is cool, but it doesn't necessarily make anybody a genius or better than other people.

Short and sweet. Definitely correct.

Interestingly, a lot of the geniuses of the past came from wealthy families, which led them to not care about silly worldly and superficial things. It's much easier to think when you're not thinking about what to eat for dinner every afternoon for the lowest price. I used to think of myself as someone who thinks outside of class, but nowadays I feel so brain dead. My extracurricular activities seem to have went from meddling with mathematics and science to balancing my checkbook and figuring out good deals. Perhaps it's contemporary society that removes the scholar inside of us (or for some of us).

Still, I spend a great deal of my spare time pursuing knowledge, so I think I'm in great shape. I guess I just have to learn to deal with the problems of "adulthood" more efficiently as well so I can have more time for learning.

You are right that I oversimplified things, but the point still stands. There are a group of private medical students who go into specialties like Dermatology and Radiology only to make money. If you look at match stats for the last couple of years, these are two of the most desired specialties. They don't want do research or teach, but simply enter those specialties because they pay the most money for relatively less work compared to say becoming a neurosurgeon.

I think becoming a professor with a MD is one of the best jobs you can do. You become embedded in an academic setting, teach others, and do research. Research allows one to create and discover instead of letting others do it for you. You start making an impact in society, instead of just living in it. This is of course the path I am taking, so I am a little biased.

Finally, I agree with the rest of your post. I will just add that doing well in school isn't everything. If anything, school becomes kind of a distraction in someways after you reach a certain level. But people who chose to be lazy aren't looking too far down the road in my opinion. The most valued people in society aren't those who make the most money, but those who contribute the most to society. I think the US has sort of skewed the importance of education in many ways. Sadly, it is contributing to a bad environment for this nation will end up haunting us. This is of course why I am giving people the option to look into other countries in the future.

Your main problem with the entire system seems to be the industrialization and "businessification" (I made that word up) of academia. You should read The End of History and the Last Man because it talks about how industrialization and bastardization of every discipline known to us will occur at the end of history. It also cites the U.S. as a potential nation that has reached this end of history (or will soon reach it). Science is now definitely coupled with industry to some degree, and even hospitals operate as a business. It's also a definite fact that wage is an important factor in what careers we pursue, regardless of how much we'd like to avoid dwelling on material belongings.

I wouldn't go that far, but I our growing obsession with money is ruining many of our institutions. This was kind of evident after the Bush admin. Do you really think this will spread to other countries? It seems that it wouldn't really be accepted in the less money driven European countries, but I may just check out that book.

While I agree to most of the aforementioned comments, i"d have to disagree that the pursuit of wealth is detrimental to the education/learning system we have today. Sure it's the ethical and romanticized train of thought, but the reality is different, I feel.

It is when the focus of education becomes acquiring wealth as opposed to the acquisition of wealth through education, that things get corrupted. When the pursuit of knowledge is displaced by the pursuit of money, things turn sour.

You'll always have the student that wants to get the high paying job to make a comfortable living for himself, no matter what field of study.

You'll alwyas have the student that wants to pursue his passion and not care about the money.

And you'll have the student that realizes that his passion can bring him money.

It is the third student that I'm referring to here where money is not "the enemy". It often drives advances in all fields of knowledge. If the "genius's " perception is that of not working for wealth but for knowlege, his achievements will be lost in his lifetime and not become useful to his present society. This perhaps may be an overly gloom assesment in this age of technology where people can "know" what you are doing, but you efforts will be worthless if not exploited in a "sellable" manner.

And to add non thread-jacking input:

I am still of the belief that geniuses are made not born. While there are researchers trying to figure out the genetics behind intelligence, you'll find that most if not every person we consider "geniuses" did the tried and true thing of sticking to their guns and putting down the effort. It takes 10000 hours to master a skill they say, and that extends to all fields of knowledge, arts, sports, etc... I think the genius part comes in to our lack of understanding of the genius's interest.

I was one of the so called 'overachievers' (and no, many of us don't label ourselfs as such as some people in this thread have pointed out). I say "was" because that's what my teachers and peers and parents had described me as. Yet I never considered my achievements as nothing else but the results of my efforts. It wasn't until in high school (while learning some of the more time-consuming subjects such as physics, calc, and yes even art), that my easy going attitude had trumped my discipline in schoolwork.

I did fine afterall (4.2/4), but the bad practice carried over to college. The straight A student became the C average student in short order, mostly in part to the lack of courses where u can "BS" your way through them, or commit facts to memory. Yet, I found some interesting things that reinforced my beliefs in the discipline needed for school. I saw "C" hiigh school students turn into "A" college students, and saw freshman tutors become senior "tutorees". The common denominator being the amount of hours put in.

Now you may be telling yourself, "but I've seen this guy get the concept of ---insert least favorite subject here---- in no time, he's most definitely a genius!"; but the fact is that said concept is more than likely built on past concepts which said "guy" arduously worked on. We may not see the thoughts evolving in a Nobel Laureate's mind like we see a gymnast develop great flexibility leading to olympic winning performances, but was the road to get there that much different?

So to sum things up, if we measure success as the acquisition of wealth or money, than you most certainly don't need a college education (more than 50 % of millionaires don't have one (or so i've read) [think Bill Gates]). Do what feels right to you; if you want to start a gardening business and dissapoint your parents, go for it (just work harder/smarter than your competitors). Your success will ultimately be the measure of the happiness you achieve, not the diplomas hanging on your wall.

Now I'm going to digress from the topic entirely!

You're right that money is not evil. I also believe that money can bring happiness for some. I just lament the fact that science has become industrialized. I'm a bit passionate about mathematics and science, and I cringe when I think about science today. I'd just wish that I could be happy with just enough money to live, but the pressures of society today makes me wish for more. It's an internal and external personal issue for me.

Wealth is a great motivator, but it seems that it seems to be the main motivator for too many people. Centuries ago, that romanticized train of thought was the actual reality, and it's notable that we went from a society of scholars to a society driven by wealth.

Forgive me for dwelling on this issue. I'm a bit passionate when it comes to this subject. I'm also a person who likes to live among theory and potential "fantasies".