I wish to dialog with Dreamers

I am not a Dreamer, I am a citizen born of legal immigrants. I have been reading your forums as I try to familiarize myself with the issues around CIR/DreamAct.

I finally decided to register so I could ask my questions. I understand the need for CIR--- frankly our numbers for immigration are way off from what we actually need.
I supported the Dream Act for the most part and updated immigration for farm workers (who should not be treated like slaves and should be fast tracked to citizenship)

However I dont understand the following:
1. Immigrants don't do work American citizens would do, I mean--- most of my friends who are illegal work in construction which my citizenship friends would do.
2. What is the proposed way to work with people who are waiting to legally move, would dreamers/etc move ahead? That seems a bit unjust.
3. Why the other country flags during rallys, if you are American, wouldn't you wave the American flag?
4. I really don't understand why we should let people who voluntarily deported or were deported back in? For example today I read a story about people marching on the border demanding to be let back in. If you left or were deported, I can't support just anyone coming into the country because they feel like they deserve it or something.

Please help me understand the general position on these topics, sometimes when I am reading the boards it feels like if you don't automatically agree with everyone getting legalized immediately you get painted as a numbers usa right wing nut, when in actuality I just want to understand.

Welcome to the forum. A couple of questions: Where are your parents from? How long did they wait to become legal? Did they ever live illegally here? Have you known illegals who have crossed the river and/or dessert to get to the USA? I'm not trying to be an a-hole, just making sure you understand what some of us have (or haven't) gone through.

1. We live in a capitalist society which is driven by supply and demand. Cheap labor is a must (it all started with slavery...and currently it is illegal immigration). Since most of us don't wanna pay a lot of money for the stuff we buy, we buy cheap, which is due to cheap labor and so on...so, if your USC friend wanted to work construction he would do it for $20.00/hour, not $8.00/hour, so that would drive prices up and so on...

2. If the system was fast and effective, people wouldn't need to wait decades (yes, decades) to receive a VISA...but answering your point, I don't know what the current CIR bill says about that. Then again, with a fast and expedite system, there should be no long wait, leading to nobody being processed before or after, which would make things fair and unfair.

3. Like I've stated before, just because after WWII immigrants and their descendants decided to lose their culture and background, doesn't mean that all of us should. We are not afraid of who we are. What I do agree is that USA flags should be waved along our home countries.

4. That point I agree with you. We must live with the choices we make, and so, with the repercussions. Nothing is fair in life but we make the most of it.

In the end, is not that we demand things, we just ask for something just. Most of us were NOT asked when we brought here, or we didn't understand how things worked...until too late. Hope we can get this thread going with civility and positive criticism.

1.I'm not gonna touch this one because opinions vary quite differently concerning.
2.That doesn't seem like a question at all but a statement meant to incite something further
3.Yes,but many people are also proud of their roots as well.Just because someone may wave another flag does not mean it is the 'intent' of the individual not to assimilate within American society.
4.It is simply because those very same individuals who were deported were in some cases the only adults of working age and supporting the family.There are many good examples of this such as US citizen children who's parents were deported prior or elderly US citizen or Permanent resident parents who relied on the their undocumented immediate family members.I'm guessing you're talking about the specifics concerning the Senate bill where an individual will still have to prove some form of hardship to a legal immediate relative.

1." Immigrants don't do work American citizens would do,"

lol your prolly right we dont do them , and thats because of the simple fact that hey we dont have a social ? , and i guarantee you that if we did , or ever have a chance at getting one , and doing the jobs "American citizens do" , we'd be 2x 3x better then what you guys do , best believe that

2. What is the proposed way to work with people who are waiting to legally move, would dreamers/etc move ahead? That seems a bit unjust.

thats where the "comprehensive" immigration reform would come , to have this issue settled , who comes first is your question ? , "dreamers" who were brought at no fault of their own at such a young age , high school graduates some even college graduates . or those who are waiting in line ? , think about it , dreamers are like citizens without the documentation

3. Why the other country flags during rallys, if you are American, wouldn't you wave the American flag?



4. I really don't understand why we should let people who voluntarily deported or were deported back in? For example today I read a story about people marching on the border demanding to be let back in. If you left or were deported, I can't support just anyone coming into the country because they feel like they deserve it or something.


" I really don't understand why we should let people who voluntarily deported or were deported back in"

i think you need to educate yourself s on that one , i dont think you know clearly how the immigration system works , they have not been let back in , up to date information states that they are being held at eloy detention center awaiting to see a judge , the judge can either grant em a bond and let them back in but will be placed on parole probation whatever you wanna call it , theyll still have to have their cases resolved , its not an easy process , it takes years for their cases to actually be closed , and or the judge can simple deny them bond and either a they will stay at that center appealing or b they will be deported , educate yourselfs young lady ,

I already said, I don't know much about the full problems with the immigration system, only that there are large ones. I don't know that a non-citizen would do everything better than a citizen, I would guess it depends on the job and the person.

My parents and grandparents waited 17 years, but their situation was different I'd guess as they were able to come to America and live and work for long periods of time because of need. They are from England and Canada. The people I have known are a mix of visa overstays and a few whose parents crossed the border to do farm work. As I mentioned, I believe Farm workers should get the first crack at Citizenship because they have been unjustly worked and underpaid and abused. Then if I were some magical czar I would fast track the people who have been waiting on the system to citizenship while establishing a legal status for those here, and then dreamers and then everyone else. I wouldn't offer citizenship to anyone who has commited a crime including DUI (personal bias, I have a friend who was critically injured by a non-citizen who was driving drunk)

regarding question 3, it isn't a matter of your culture... unless I suppose the flag of your home country is your culture. Your home country, I thought the argument was, is the USA....thus I feel like you would want to show that, you are here and you are already USA citizens in everything but name and rights.

I simply don't understand deportation apparently, how would you decide who was unjustly and justly deported? how far back would the "okay, you get in too" go?

I am asking because I don't know and half of you seem reasonable enough for a stranger not in your position to ask. My hope is that the figure something out so we arent doing CIR every 30 or so years...

1. Meh. You're right to some extent. Where they do have an effect in numbers, undocumented workers tend to crowd out poorly educated African Americans to a very minimal extent (reduced wages at about 5%).

2. The current CIR bill tries to eliminate the entire visa backlog (family and employment) in the next 7 years. People in that list get green cards about as fast as DREAMers under the Senate framework. I imagine that people who submit a petition after a certain date this year would either have them reclassified under a new system or denied outright if CIR passes.

Note, people waiting legally to move include a lot of people already in the United States who immigrated without permission and are trying to find ways to legalize their status (but can't).

3. With you on this one. I don't get this either, not because I disrespect others' cultures, but because it works against our argument that we are Americans. We can show our culture in so many other forums that it's pointless to do so in the context of marches where we say we want full membership in American society.

4. It's also an issue of family reunification and other concerns. The 3/10 year bar prevents people who left after staying unlawfully from coming back for 3 or 10 years (depending on whether they stayed unlawfully over a year). When people get deported, they often leave families behind that formerly depended on them for economic support. Their return, in addition to giving us all a nice and fuzzy feeling, helps keep families out of poverty and keeps our economy going.

A different argument goes for those who left, especially when it comes to our friends who went elsewhere because they had no further opportunities here. Think college graduates and graduate students who couldn't get jobs or post-docs since they left to find those opportunities elsewhere before DACA came into effect. These people are some of the best and brightest DREAMers around; to refuse to let them in is to reject the investment that Americans made to their education over the course of two decades.

As for the "okay, you get in too," you'll always draw a line somewhere. And it'll always be arbitrary. It's how the law works in every single field.

How to avoid CIR every 30 years? Probably some variation of squatters' rights like you have in the UK: permission, called leave, to remain if you've lived there for 20 years, lawfully or unlawfully, followed by their equivalent of Green Card status and possible citizenship after another 10 years. But that's not happening anytime soon, I don't think.

interesting, I guess internally my line is those that are here not those who voluntarily left. Id be open to letting highly educated dreamers back "in" but again that is subjective and I am not even certain it is legal. It does bother me the way some people seem to flagrantly flaunt breaking the rules as though they are owed. It would bother me less if the law was some how unjust but I am not sure, it seems as though the only people I have ever heard of being deported were in general breaking a law (driving drunk/gang activity etc) so, I am just not sure about this march on our border to secure rights, that one wouldnt have because technically, despite everything at this point they have no rights as citizens, since they aren't citizens. The article I read wasn't just dreamers walking, it was relatives. I don't quite understand why family unification in that case cant take place in the area where they are currently living. It feels a bit like saying, well you had to invest in those children for all those years (plyer v. doe) and now you are ALSO obligated to give them and their relatives citizenship.

Can you direct me to some information around african americans and the effect on them? Is it really only 5% in decreased wages and job opprotunity? I would have thought it was way more and introducing more people to the economy does concern me as I am very concerned with job creation etc.

yeahhhhhh , i wasnt gonna speak on this anymore , but you just dont seem to have a clue whats going on , i myselfs was in an immigration detention center , and seen so many bad things , alot of people being placed there for a simple traffic stop , heck one even for not having his light on his bike on during the night , i guess he was on his way to work , but come on seriously ? . plus the fact that here in az our sheriff has been convicted of using racial profiling , so yeah , theres been plenty of unjust deportations , i just dont wanna say anymore , if you havent lived or walked on our shoes , you have completely no sence of what we are going thru ,. so yeah ima just leave it at that

I am a citizen, my voice would help your cause and I dont want to be ignorant to it and just say stupid stuff based on my experience.... BUT my experience is that the only people I have heard of being deported WERE in the midst of criminal activity. And if you arent a citizen, you really dont have any more rights to citizenship/living here than any other non-citizen... so once again I dont see why marching on the border when you have been deported makes sense. BUT this is an odd attitude, since I dont know what you are going through and I am asking questions and comparing my experience I have no right to what? Ask questions, understand what the exact issue is? Perhaps I should just get my view points from what I see locally or on the news? Is that it? I am here ASKING QUESTIONS and trying to understand and so far all you have said is non-citizens are better at all everything by 2x or 3x and I should basically sit down and shut up cause I dont what? get it? HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO GET IT if I dont ask. My friends who are Visa overstays are for DREAM ACT but not necessarily for CIR and my friends whose parents were farm workers just dont want their parents to be harrassed and deported. So I was branching out. Thank you to those who were civil in their reply. I understand now this forum isn't for people who aren't in your shoes and will not bother you going forward.

thank you