New Member

Hello, all. I am a new member on this site. I have not been totally sold on the Dream Act, but I also don't have a lot of information about it. Everything I hear has been all totally wonderful or all totally bad about the Dream Act. It seems really hard to get any objective information so that a person could make up their own mind.

So, I decided to join this site and see if I could find articles that describe the Dream Act more thoroughly. I think the illegal immigration debate lacks rational discussion. The conversation always seems to degenerate into just a bunch of name calling and demonization.

So, again, hello everyone. This seems like a nice site.

Welcome. Glad to hear that you're interested in the Dream Act. What do you know about it now? What have you heard about the Dream Act that is negative? Also, there is a link from the front page where you can read the legislation (although a couple of things have been changed, it's not the latest). It's not very long, just one or two pages.

Thanks for the hello...

Okay, I have heard negative and positive. Thanks for the link. That's probably the place for the best information.

Here is the basis of what I've been told...

The dream act would allow students who were brought into the country by their parents illegally the opportunity to obtain the necessary status or right to attend college without having to pay out of state tuition. After completion of a degree or military service, participants would be able to obtain some type of legal status or become American citizens.

The positive spin - goes something like this...

Students who have entered the country "through no fault of their own" by being possibly brought along by parents (which is what I believe is typically the case) are denied entry into colleges and universities. This act rectifies that injustice.

The negative spin...

Illegal immigrants who have broken the law by entering the country illegally will be given the opportunity to benefit from their crimes by attending colleges and universities at the taxpayers expense. (You can see how this is a very charged version of what seems to be the same act.)


If the children of illegal immigrants are denied entry to college (and I don't know the facts), it does seem to suggest that we're punishing innocents for something their parents did. That seems unfair.

But, then if there is any truth to the negative version, that also seems unfair to immigrants who go through the aggravatingly slow and often expensive process of entering the country legally. They wait sometimes for years for family members to come, when it would seem if they just broke the law, both they and their family members could benefit sooner.

So, I want to learn the truth. I want to be an advocate. But, I want to be an advocate for what's right.

Well, the negative version is pretty spinny. I mean, just to get some kind of context going, think back to when you were 3 months old, 3 years old, 9 years old, 12 years old, 15 years old. What kind of control did you have over your life? You likely couldn't choose which CDs to buy or whether to wear revealing clothes, much less where your parents chose to move.

Many "DREAMers" (which is what we call people who would benefit under the DREAM Act) came to the country before they were understand what it meant to immigrate illegally. Many came under the notion that they were just visiting. Others, who came when they were older (remember: in order to benefit, you have to have been under the age of 16 when you arrived), DID understand what was going on, but still had no choice. After all, think of what would happen if you were a 15 year old--that's just a freshman here--whose parents had suddenly decided to move to another country. Would you go with them, whatever the circumstances, or would you stay in your country, an immature teenager, to fend for yourself? There's no option; you had to go.

So, while it may be technically true that the law was broken when they entered the country, it's hard to argue that it was willfully broken by the DREAMers. These were minors who, at worst were coerced, and at best were simply dragged along into "breaking the law" as would be a baby riding in the backseat of a stolen car; in any other crime than illegal entry, they would (as teenagers) be absolved easily in a court of law, and (as younger children) the judge would laugh anybody trying to place some culpability on them out of the room.

Also, only 60% of undocumented immigrants entered illegally. The rest came on visas and overstayed. I would wager that, for immigrants with children, the overstay rate is much higher and that the general numbers are skewed by single men and women. So in these cases, the children were not even guilty (if you could even charge them of being guilty in that situation) of entering the country illegally; all they did was not leave. Some of them were in this country legally for as much as 15 years before they finally fell out of status.

So here you have around a million and a half young people, a very small number in the scheme of things, who are living in this country without status, even though aside from their paperwork there is very little about them that distinguishes them from their peers. And I want to emphasize that: what is the real difference between someone who was born here, and is now 25 years old, and someone who was brought here at the age of one and is now 25 years old? What makes one more American than the other? A piece of paper. Is that so important? Should it be?

So, put yourself in their shoes. Say you have been here since you were a baby. You don't remember NOT being here. You speak the language of your home country badly--well enough to communicate casually with your parents, but nowhere near well enough to get a job or attend college in that language. You are American culturally. All of your friends are here. You identify with the history and the values and the future of this country. You think of yourself as a New Yorker. You have a southern accent. You like cornbread. You know the capital of every state.

And then you find out that you're not here legally--many DREAMers have no idea until they turn 16 or 18. What would you do? Would you leave? With no chance of coming back? To go to a country where you know no one, where you don't know the language or the laws well enough to survive? And you can NEVER come back.

Because that's how it is. You talk about the legal immigrants who have gone through the arduous process of coming here legally, and I'm right behind you there. This is why we need TOTAL immigration reform. Nobody here suffers under the belief that we should only give a legal path to status for undocumented immigrants--that doesn't solve the problem.

But when talking about legal immigration, you have to realize that DREAMers don't have that option. There is no line for them. If they come here illegally, and then leave while still minors, then the only way they can come back is through being sponsored by a family member--this can take over a decade, especially if they're from Mexico. Or if they get married to a US citizen--pretty unlikely if they're living in a foreign country. Once they turn 18 and a half, it gets worse. At that age, leaving the country would start a three year ban against them. Even if they had family members here who had green cards or who were citizens, they wouldn't be able to petition them until three years after they left the country. Once the DREAMer turned 19, that would change to 10 years. They wouldn't even be allowed to visit. So we're talking about complete exile here.

So, essentially, you have the Dream Act, which is not extremely ambitious. If the applicant has a clean criminal record and has graduated from high school or obtained a GED, he or she can apply for a conditional green card. This green card would last for 6 years. During that period, the DREAMer would have to complete either 2 years of college or 2 years in the armed forces--remember, here, that they only have to have 2 years COMPLETED during that time. A term in the army is 8 years, so unless they are honorably discharged (they would not have their app approved if they were dishonorably discharged), they will serve 8 years. Meanwhile, our military is overstretched.

As for the tuition, the current edition of the Dream Act does not guarantee in state tuition. It would be left up to the state. Applicants are denied most forms of government financial aid, except for I think loans (no pell grants or any of that.) They aren't taking anything from anyone, haven't broken any laws, and through the act will be required to do something beneficial for the US, whether it's serving in the military or becoming college educated so they can make more money and pay more taxes.

Sorry that this was so long, but I think it's important to communicate all of this fully. If you have any questions, please ask.

Welcome do to DAP! Well put pingpong

Yupa, I'm glad you came here to find out more information about the DREAM Act. Many people don't do enough research on their own and listen to the negative things the media says and base their opinion on that and not the facts.

I agree with pingpong. DREAMers were brought here to this country when they were young, when they could not make the decision on their own. They were brought here illegally or legally, but most had no idea that they were illegal or over stayed their visas until they went and tried to get a drivers license or tried to go on a class trip to Washington D.C. or tried to apply for financial aid or any other normal event an American teenager goes through.

Some states offer instate tuition for undocumented students, however, even with that instate tuition, many undoc. students can not go to school because they can't afford it. They are not able to receive financial aid through FAFSA, receive pell grants and even scholarships. They can try to apply for loans, but even that is difficult because most banks do not give out loans to those who are undocumented unless they have a U.S. citizen co-sign (but sometimes even a co-signer doesn't help). Like every college student who has taken out a loan we too would have to be pay it back with interest so there is no burden on the tax payers.

Also, some DREAMies work so they can afford to pay for college. Like any other American that works, we too pay taxes, unlike the misconception the media puts out there. We try to find any way of making some money so we can afford our education and try to make our lives a little better in this society. Almost everyone on this website who is a DREAMie has a Social Security Number (they received it before they went out of status and was not stolen from someone else!) or an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) which is given to those people who can not obtain a SSN for whatever reason. They use those numbers to file taxes just like any other American. I just wanted to put that out there and make it clear that we DO pay taxes, but yet don't receive any benefits from paying those taxes.

The DREAM Act will ultimately give us an opportunity to become normal American residents and hopefully later on citizens. Many of us have been waiting all our lives to become legal (some of us were brought here when we were only 1 month old or 2 years old). We have waited 10, 15, 20 years which is essentially the same wait times if not longer for people who come here legally, but yet we can not receive the full benefits and opportunities of an American. Our parents made the decision to bring us here because our birth countries are in horrible conditions and they only wanted to better our lives. Sometimes people have to make sacrifices in their lives, and this was one of them.

If you were to meet any one of us while walking down the street or at school or anywhere, you would most likely think we normal American citizens. This is because we are American in every sense of the word. We have lived here almost all our lives, we know the English language, we grew up in the American culture, we love this country and we call it our own. Our birth countries are just that; we were born there. We did not grow up there and if were to get deported, we would be sent to the unknown. Think of a place you have never been to and imagine how it would be if you were sent to that place and were forced to live there on your own (and I'm not talking about just a few months, but years and years of living in poverty).

I know this is getting a bit long, but like pingpong I don't want to miss out on giving you the information necessary to make your own opinion on this matter.

In order to qualify for the Act, one must have come here before his/her 16th birthday, has lived here for at least 5 consecutive years, has obtained a high school diploma or GED and is of good moral character. In the last bill that was brought to the Senate floor, there was an upper age limit. If a person was 30 years old or older, they would not qualify. I am not sure if they will leave it at 30 or change it.

Now, if a person qualifies (some will not in which case they will be deported), but if they qualify they are then given a 6 year conditional permanent residency. During these 6 years the person must complete at least 2 years towards a bachelors or higher degree or 2 years of military service and have kept a clean record. After 6 years has passed and they have completed the requirements, they will be able to apply for permanent residency. If they do not meet these requirements, they will be stripped of the conditional residency and return to their previous status (illegal) in which case they can be deported.

Edit: If the link doesn't work, just go to thomas.gov. In the Search Bill Text box type in S.2205 and click on bill number and Search. When the bill comes up click on Beginning or October 18, 2007 to direct you to the beginning of the bill.

This is the latest version of the bill (10/18/2007):
http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/...10AEBg5u:e447: