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DAP Forums > DREAM Act > The Lounge

Weapons of Mass Information+Education and US law+Poll Bank

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#1
10-09-2007, 06:19 PM
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***[SECTION ON EDUCATION CAN BE FOUND BELOW THIS ONE]***
***[SECTION CONTAINING POLL DATA CAN BE FOUND BELOW THE SECTION ON EDUCATION]***


WE ARE SUPPORTED BY THE WORLD'S MOST RESPECTED PUBLICATIONS. USE THAT. DO NOT LET THEM USE THEIR SELF WRITTEN SOURCES TO ARGUE AGAINST US.

This thread is devoted entirely to building an irrefutable argument for DREAM. There is nothing more fun than to completely shut down someone else's argument with one pertinent quote.

There is a reason why all our arguments go like this:

Quote:
OPPOSITION: DREAM gives illegals special in state tuition.

DREAM ACT: No it doesn't, who said that?

OPPOSITION: It does, I said that.

DREAM ACT: Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says it doesn't, who is more credible? You or him?

OPPOSITION: eh eh eh, illegal is illegal.
Below are quotes and articles that back us up, from real sources and not the Biloxi Semi-Annual Newsletter.

Use these everywhere, when calling, when writing, when talking to your mother. Nothing says "sit down and shut up" like a quote from the thirty-three time Pulitzer Prize winning Wall Street Journal.

Articles:


Wall Street Journal - By MIRIAM JORDAN September 21, 2007
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1190...googlenews_wsj

New York Times
- Editorial 9/20/07
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/20/opinion/20thur2.html

TIME Magazine
8/2/07
http://www.time.com/time/politics/ar...649483,00.html

USA Today 9/7/07
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...m_N.htm?csp=34


Speeches:



Durbin Speech 9/18
http://www.dreamact.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2210
^THIS IS A MUST READ AND THE BEST WRITTEN ARGUMENT OF THEM ALL


Durbin Speech 9/26
http://www.dreamact.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2566

Supporters mentioned in these quotes:

Bill Carr, deputy undersecretary for military personnel policy
Margaret Stock - West Point professor who studies immigrants in the military
Beth Asch - a RAND economist who specializes in military manpower.
RAND Corporation (per above)
Pentagon spokesman
Senator Dick Durbin
Center for Naval Analysis
David Chu, the Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Max Boot - a conservative military scholar
Bishop Thomas Wenski of Orlando, speaking for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.
Largest teacher's union in the US
Senator John McCain
Senator Richard Lugar
Senator Barack Obama
Senator Hillary Clinton
Senator Harry Reid
Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi
Associate Justice William J. Brennan Jr



MILITARY ARGUMENTS

Quote:
"It would be tremendously beneficial to the military. It gives the opportunity to enlist hundreds of thousands of high-quality people. They will be encouraged to join the U.S. military."
^Margaret Stock - West Point professor who studies immigrants in the military, Wall Street Journal 9/21/07

Quote:
Ms. Stock said Dream Act candidates are especially attractive because they aren't school dropouts, boast a clean record and will have been fully vetted by the Department of Homeland Security "before even coming to the recruiter's door."
Wall Street Journal 9/21/07

Quote:
"The military would love to recruit more qualified noncitizens...This is a potentially very recruitable group."
^Beth Asch, a Rand economist who specializes in military manpower. Wall Street Journal 9/21/07

Quote:
A Pentagon spokesman confirmed that Defense Secretary Robert Gates had been briefed on the bill. Declining to comment on the proposed legislation, the spokesman said, "We would never want to deny any qualified person the opportunity to serve our nation."
Wall Street Journal 9/21/07

Quote:
"It turns out that many in the Department of Defense believe, as I do, that the Dream Act is an important part of making certain we have talented young men and women ready to serve in our military."
^Senator Dick Durbin, Wall Street Journal 9/21/07

Quote:
Bill Carr, deputy undersecretary for military personnel policy, cited the Dream Act's role in addressing shortfalls in recruitment during a June telephone conference with representatives of veterans groups, according to the Defense Department's internal news service.
Wall Street Journal 9/21/07

Quote:
A recent study by the Center for Naval Analysis concluded ``non-citizens have high rates of success while serving in the military--they are far more likely, for example, to fulfill their enlistment obligations than their U.S.-born counterparts.''

The study also concluded there are additional benefits to enlisting noncitizens. For example, noncitizens ``are more diverse than citizen recruits--not just racially and ethnically, but also linguistically and culturally. This diversity is particularly valuable as the United States faces the challenges of the global war on terrorism.''
Senator Dick Durbin speech 9/18

Quote:
Bill Carr, the Acting Under Secretary of Defense for Military Personnel Policy, recently said the DREAM Act is ``very appealing'' to the military because it would apply to the ``cream of the crop'' of students, in his words. Mr. Carr concluded the DREAM Act would be ``good for [military] readiness.''
Senator Dick Durbin speech 9/18

Quote:
Last year at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on the contributions of immigrants to the military, David Chu, the Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness, said:

There are an estimated 50,000 to 65,000 undocumented alien young adults who entered the United States at an early age and graduate from high school each year, many of whom are bright, energetic and potentially interested in military service. They include many who participated in high school Junior ROTC programs. Under current law, these young people are not eligible to enlist in the military ..... Yet many of these young people may wish to join the military, and have the attributes needed--education, aptitude, fitness and moral qualifications. .....

The Under Secretary went on to say:

..... the DREAM Act would provide these young people the opportunity of serving the United States in uniform.
Senator Dick Durbin speech 9/18


Quote:
It's a substantial pool of people and I think it's crazy we are not tapping into it.
^Conservative military scholar Max Boot, Senator Dick Durbin speech 9/18


SACRIFICE


Quote:
Passing the Dream Act would do more than give deserving young people a path beyond dead-end jobs and lives in the shadows. It would honor the thousands of immigrant soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. The lengthening list of those who have given their lives includes Cpl. Juan Mariel Alcántara, a 22-year-old New Yorker who was born in the Dominican Republic. The official date that he became an American was Aug. 6, the same day that a bomb killed him and three fellow soldiers in Baquba, north of Baghdad. He was the 103rd immigrant to become a citizen posthumously in this war.
New York Times 9/20/07

Quote:
Do you know what, an amnesty is a giveaway. Amnesty is a card to pass ``Go'' and collect $200 in America. Do you think those who would volunteer for the military, who are willing to risk their lives for our country, are going to receive amnesty? Is this a gift? It is a gift to America that they are willing to risk their lives for our country. It is a gift to America that once having served, they will come back as proud Americans, voting and living in this country. It is a gift to America that they will use their skills and talent to make this a greater nation. For my colleagues to come to the floor and call this amnesty is to, in some ways, denigrate the fantastic sacrifice these young people would be willing to make, who serve in the military to become citizens.
Senator Dick Durbin speech 9/18



JUSTICE


Quote:
...the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution provides that “[n]o State shall…deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

As a population within the state’s jurisdiction, undocumented students were, therefore, entitled to equal treatment under the law. In the opinion of the Court, Associate Justice William J. Brennan Jr., wrote, “To permit a state … to identify subclasses of persons whom it would define as beyond its jurisdiction, thereby
relieving itself of the obligation to assure that its laws are designed and applied equally to those persons, would undermine the principal purpose for which the Equal Protection Clause was incorporated in the Fourteenth Amendment.”
Supreme Court ruling, Plyer v. Doe

Quote:
It would show that the country has not entirely lost its ability to recognize, with grace and gratitude, the great potential in the immigrants among us.
New York Times 9/20/07

Quote:
"They talk like Americans; they think like Americans.We ought to let them dream like Americans."
^Bishop Thomas Wenski of Orlando, speaking for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, USA Today 9/7/07

Quote:
“[W]hatever savings might be achieved by denying these children an education, they are wholly insubstantial in light of the costs involved to these children, the State, and the Nation.”
^Associate Justice William J. Brennan Jr,



REASON


Quote:
The idea is modest and smart, but modest and smart usually don’t get very far these days.
New York Times 9/20/07

Quote:
But backers say it's a sensible response to a growing national dilemma — and one that rewards "the cream of the crop, the kids who are genuine college material and those who really want to contribute to American society," says Mary Gundrum, FIAC's managing attorney for immigration.
TIME magazine, 8/2/07

Quote:
But the case's sudden and remarkable high profile — even CNN immigration grouch Lou Dobbs suggested this week that an exception might be in order for the brothers — has raised hopes that the DREAM Act could get a vote in both chambers as early as this fall.
TIME magazine, 8/2/07


WIDE SUPPORT

Quote:
The Catholic bishops are among several religious groups lobbying for the bill. Democratic leaders in the House and Senate support it. So do senior Republican senators such as Arizona's John McCain and Indiana's Richard Lugar, as well as the nation's largest teachers union.
USA Today 10/7/07


ON THE OPPOSITION

Quote:
Their hostility to nurturing a new cohort of American citizens, their reflexive “no” even to this limited attempt at immigration decency, lays bare the bankruptcy of their self-defeating passions.
New York Times 9/20/07

Quote:
They are convinced that giving a break to blameless young men and women — maybe about a million — who want to earn a college degree or serve in the military weakens the country instead of strengthening it.
New York Times 9/20/07

THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS. PLEASE KEEP ME INFORMED OF WELL KNOWN SOURCES AND TV APPEARANCES.

CURRENTLY IN NEED:

...
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#2
10-09-2007, 06:38 PM
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Other resources.



ECONOMIC

Quote:
Because the DREAM Act would lead more immigrants to graduate from high school and college, it would also increase tax revenues and reduce government expenses. This positive fiscal impact is likely to be quite large. For example, based on estimates in a 1999 RAND study, an average 30-year-old Mexican immigrant woman who has graduated from college will pay $5,300 more in taxes and cost $3,900 less in criminal justice and welfare expenses each year than if she had dropped out of high school. This amounts to a total annual increased fiscal contribution of more than $9,000 per person.

The increased fiscal contribution would repay the required educational investment within a few years and thereafter would provide a profit to taxpayers for several decades. Some of those helped by the DREAM Act would be encouraged to graduate from high school but would not go on to college. These, too, would greatly increase their fiscal contribution in the years and decades to come. Almost half, or about $4,200, of the annual increased contribution of
the average 30-year-old Mexican immigrant woman discussed above is due to high school graduation. The rest is attributable to the effects of college attendance and graduation.

Beyond fiscal impact, the DREAM Act would benefit the economy by significantly increasing the income of affected immigrants, thereby stimulating spending and investment. Again using numbers from the RAND study cited above, the average Mexican immigrant woman who graduates from college as a result of the DREAM Act instead of dropping out would likely increase her pretax income at age 30 by more than $13,500 per year. All of these calculations are based solely on the educational advancements that the DREAM Act would make possible. The income and fiscal contribution of DREAM Act students would increase an additional amount due to their newly legalized immigration status and consequent ability to work legally. Studies of the 1986 Reagan-era legalization program showed a dramatic improvement in income for the newly legalized population. The cumulative impact of the DREAM Act on the economy could amount to hundreds of billions of dollars.
NILC report based on RAND Corporation research
http://www.rand.org/education/projects/crip.html
http://www.nilc.org/immlawpolicy/DRE...Adjst_0205.pdf

Quote:
...if we increased college completion rates of today’s Hispanic 18-year-olds by as little as 3 percent, we would increase projected social insurance payments, such as Medicare contributions, by $600 million. By conservative estimates, the investments made now into these students’ college education would be repaid by their higher tax contributions within four years after they have entered the workforce.
RAND Corporation report
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#3
10-09-2007, 06:53 PM
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***Please note that you are encouraged to read things for yourself. I do not wish for anyone to simply regurgitate mine or anyone's arguments without knowing what they are based on. Think for yourself. Remember: "Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum (I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am)"- Rene Descartes ***

THE LATEST VERSION OF THE DREAM ACT DOES NOT, DOES NOT, DOES NOT REQUIRE IN-STATE TUITION FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.


This thread is devoted to the idea of education for undocumented immigrants in the eyes of American law. Please be very careful to note that some of these ideas only apply to primary and secondary education NOT to the in-state issue. I will always note what each quote refers to. Do not misquote. Inform me of any errors. Supreme Court rulings however make no distinction with respect to the applicability of the Constitution. Read VERY carefully.

Credit to citizenhope for discovering most of this information. Thank you.

Information is largely sourced from a bulletin by the National Association for College Admission Counseling a highly respected professional higher education organization.

Note that the bulletin was originally issued in 2001 but relevant information has been updated in 2006.
Credit to its authors, most notably David Hawkins, Director of Public Policy, the National Association for College Admission Counseling (NACAC)
http://www.nacacnet.org/NR/rdonlyres...nts_July06.pdf

Additional information sourced from the Congressional Research Service Report to Congress, Unauthorized Alien Students: Issues and “DREAM Act” Legislation
http://www.opencrs.com/rpts/RL33863_20070130.pdf


SUMMARY (for the lazy, if you read nothing else read this)

Quote:
Current law governing undocumented students’ access to public elementary and secondary education is founded on the Supreme Court’s 1982 decision in Plyler v. Doe. At issue in the case was a Texas statute, enacted to discourage illegal immigration in Texas, that barred undocumented children from public elementary and secondary education.

The Court ruled that such a law was unconstitutional, stating, “children can neither affect their parents’ conduct nor their own undocumented status.” (457 U.S. 202)

The Court’s justification was based on the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which states that equal protection must be guaranteed to all persons under the jurisdiction of the state. Because the Constitution does not limit these protections to citizens, the equal protection clause applies to all individuals residing within U.S. borders, regardless of citizenship status. The Court ruled that while the equal protection clause does not protect illegal immigrants from certain measures to discourage illegal immigration, like deportation, it does protect children of illegal immigrants, who are not responsible for their position or status, from measures that deprive them of basic rights.

The Court further determined that the education of minor children was among the basic rights that could not be denied.


FOLLOW UP


1994, California, Proposition 187 denied services to illegal immigrants including education - nearly entirely struck down by US District Judge Mariana Pfaelzer of California because it was unconstitutional.

1996, Congressional Action, Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA) Public Law 104-208 - revised immigration law and prohibited undocumented aliens from the use of federal services (most pertinent to our case - federal financial aid)

Federal law DOES NOT prohibit undocumented aliens from attending college.

Quote:
Admission offices should not be in fear of admitting an undocumented student. There are no penalties for enrolling them. There are no INS requirements for reporting them...Congress has not adopted legislation which would permit states and state-owned institutions to refuse admission to undocumented aliens or to disclose their records to the INS.
^Ellen Badger, Binghamton University

Quote:
Unauthorized aliens are neither entitled to nor prohibited from admission to postsecondary educational institutions in the United States. To gain entrance to these institutions, these students must meet the same requirements as any other student, which vary depending on the institution and may include possessing a high school diploma, passing entrance exams, and surpassing a high school grade point average (GPA) threshold. Although admissions applications for most colleges and universities request that students provide their Social Security number, this information typically is not required for admission.
^CRS Report to Congress, Unauthorized Alien Students: Issues and “DREAM Act” Legislation


Per above the argument that upon the passage of the DREAM Act its beneficiaries would take away college spots from US citizens is thus null & void.

Quote:
Legislators active on behalf of this issue [note: referring to Congressmen and Senators who favor legislation similar to DREAM) believe that rewarding academic achievement of these graduates serves a greater national interest than maintaining laws that effectively prohibit them from participating at a higher level in education and the economy.


DEMOCRACY AT WORK


The United States of America is a federal constitutional republic. The following is the result of democratic action in each state which is the most accurate measure of political sentiment in those states.
Quote:
How many states have passed legislation allowing undocumented students to receive instate tuition?
Nine states have passed laws that allow undocumented immigrants to receive in-state tuition:
California, Illinois, Kansas, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah and Washington.
Democracy at work.

Quote:
How many states have tried to pass legislation restricting undocumented immigrants from receiving in-state tuition?
Six states – Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, North Carolina, Utah and Virginia – have tried to pass legislation that would ban undocumented immigrants from receiving in-state tuition. So far, none of these efforts have been successful.
Per above the argument that "most Americans don't wish to give undocumented aliens in-state tuition" is HIGHLY suspect. (seeing as this argument has been always used by the opposition but never properly sources is in itself reason to ignore it)




Plyer v. Doe and Supreme Court conclusions regarding undocumented aliens


Quote:
Plyler v. Doe involved a Texas law that effectively banned undocumented minor children from participating in public elementary and secondary education. The Court heard arguments that sounded quite similar to those used to deny in-state college tuition for the same students: that providing K-12 education rewards illegal immigration, that we should not give public benefits to those in the country illegally. The significance of this case is not that it settled once and for all the ideological arguments surrounding immigration. Rather, the Court created protective legal precedent for minor undocumented students by carefully examining the intersection of immigration law, the distribution of public goods, and individual rights as protected by the Constitution of the United States.
Quote:
The Supreme Court’s decision addressed the question: Did a child break the law because the parents brought the child into the country illegally as a minor? The Supreme Court said “no.”
Repeat for emphasis

Quote:
The Supreme Court’s decision addressed the question: Did a child break the law because the parents brought the child into the country illegally as a minor? The Supreme Court said “no.”



SUPREME COURT OPINION
Quote:
...the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution provides that “[n]o State shall…deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

As a population within the state’s jurisdiction, undocumented students were, therefore, entitled to equal treatment under the law. In the opinion of the Court, Associate Justice William J. Brennan Jr., wrote, “To permit a state … to identify subclasses of persons whom it would define as beyond its jurisdiction, thereby
relieving itself of the obligation to assure that its laws are designed and applied equally to those persons, would undermine the principal purpose for which the Equal Protection Clause was incorporated in the Fourteenth Amendment.”

The Court further argued that federal immigration law, despite “sheer incapability or lax enforcement,” was not a justification for denying children equal protection and access to education. In recognition of this principle, several state legislatures have passed laws to allow in-state postsecondary tuition for undocumented students who have attended public high schools in state for more than three years. They realize the legal “no-man’s land” these students occupy, and have sought to remedy it under the law.
Most importantly Supreme Court Justice Brennan said:
Quote:
“[W]hatever savings might be achieved by denying these children an education, they are wholly insubstantial in light of the costs involved to these children, the State, and the Nation.”





ADDITIONAL ARGUMENTS FOR EDUCATION


LABOR ECONOMICS

Increase Educated Workforce
Over 80% of the 23 million jobs that will be created in the next 10 years will require postsecondary education (ACE, 2004). Currently, only 36% of all 18-24 year olds are enrolled in postsecondary education (NCES, 2004). Providing clear, legal paths to higher education, citizenship and employment for undocumented students will have a significant positive impact on the workforce of the future. Additionally, research shows that a more educated workforce leads to increased earnings (and subsequent increase in state and federal tax return), lower crime and poverty rates, and fewer demands on public assistance
programs.


TAX BENEFITS

Increase Revenue for the States
Ten states have passed legislation similar to the DREAM Act, and have not seen an influx of immigration, the displacement of other students in higher education, or a drain on the education system, as many critics have feared. The Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board conducted a study of their
undocumented student population after enacting a law similar to the DREAM Act in 2001. The study showed a significant increase in postsecondary enrollment of these students – nearly 10 times greater from 2001 to 2004, with most enrolling at community colleges. While the percentage undergraduate students in Texas that are undocumented is small (although Texas has the second largest population of undocumented individuals in the country), the study still showed several thousand students paying tuition to state institutions that would not have prior to the 2001 passage of the law.

LAW AND TAX REVENUE

Make Federal Policy Consistent
The Supreme Court ruled in 1982 that undocumented minors are not responsible for their immigration status and are therefore entitled to elementary and secondary education. The DREAM Act would repeal a federal law that discourages states from providing in-state tuition to these students. This contradiction represents a wasted investment for the states, who have educated these students through high school but can’t benefit from their tuition dollars or contributions to the economy or tax revenue.
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#4
10-09-2007, 07:46 PM
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Great. This will help me a lot on my editorial.
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10-10-2007, 10:17 AM
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POLLS

Quote:
Rasmussen Reports Political Tracking Survey Toplines Dream Act Survey of 800 Likely Voters October 24-25, 2007

Should children of illegal immigrants who serve two years in the military be given United States citizenship?

57% Yes
29% No14% Not sure
Quote:
ABC News Poll. Sept. 27-30, 2007. N=1,035 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults). Fieldwork by ICR.

"Would you support or oppose a program giving ILLEGAL immigrants now living in the United States the right to live here LEGALLY if they pay a fine and meet other requirements?"

Support 58%
Oppose 35%
Unsure 7%

9/27-30/07
Quote:
LA Times/Bloomberg poll December 5, 2007
http://www.latimes.com/media/acrobat...2/34119655.pdf

However, most voters, regardless of party, support allowing illegal immigrants who have been living and working in the U.S. for a number of years to start on a path to citizenship by registering, paying a fine, getting fingerprinted, and learning English, among other requirements. This is supported by roughly three out of five Democrats, independents and Republicans. A proposal along these lines was killed in Congress last year by mostly Republican lawmakers, at least partly on the grounds that the bill amounted to amnesty when what was needed was stronger border security.

In this, the poll found Congressional leaders out of step with voters. When read a selection of five choices and asked which was the most effective measure in dealing with illegal immigration, roughly three out of 10 voters picked beefing up border security as the most effective approach, 27% mentioned sanctioning employers, 27% said a pathway to citizenship would be best, and 18% thought instituting a guest worker program would do the trick.
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Hey this is AWESOME thanks for the time and effort .
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10-10-2007, 09:50 PM
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HEALTHCARE BURDEN

Quote:
Illegal immigrants not U.S. health care burden: study

Mon Nov 26, 4:14 PM ET

Illegal Latino immigrants do not cause a drag on the U.S. health care system as some critics have contended and in fact get less care than Latinos in the country legally, researchers said on Monday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071126/...VCF6L.EigXIr0F
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10-11-2007, 11:07 PM
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this is awesome, is there any volunteer to make a flyer out of these? I could if no one else can...does anyone else think its a good idea?
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great job compiling all of this.
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Here is the list of Nilc.

http://democracyinaction.org/dia/org...0Endorsers.htm

Terrific article in favor of Dream by a person that is clearly not a liberal.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl.../EDHVSN1GJ.DTL

If I find good information by other sources I am going to pass them to you.

P.S.

Thank you J6, for all the hardcore work.
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