Eliminate Your Competition

I'm a new guy here and your focus seems to be only on the Dream Act. Well, I know that some of you are possibly involved in other areas of immigration as am I and I have a very important message for you.

First, I am a right wing constitutionalist (not a neocon or "conservative," BTW.) Under normal circumstances you would expect me to be on the opposite side of the political fence from you. But, you're now hearing from a man who grew up in a very extreme kind of atmosphere. In my family there were people who were Ku Klux Klan leaders. And there were an assortment of liberals... my sister married a Lebanese; my uncle married a hispanic woman back in the 1960s. In short, there is nobody on the face of this earth with more exposure to this subject than me... and very few who have an equal amount of exposure.

And so, what I'm going to tell you will take a couple of postings, but you will gain some valuable insights and learn things you never knew. Most of all, you will see what it is going to take to end the battle over immigration. And for me, this is about self survival. Here's my take:

According to the law, it is not illegal to be in the United States without papers. At best, under statutory law, it is a misdemeanor. AND because of practice, it has become a CIVIL VIOLATION OF THE LAW.

Once in the United States, the immigrant who enters illegally finds a WILLING population ready to hire them, rent to them, sell to them, and do business with them. And this is my personal opinion: IF the American people really did not want the foreigner to be here, they would have boycotted them and all who do business with them. What we see is a willing relationship between both parties. It is for that reason that the libertarian in me comes out. We've had a War on Drugs, War on Poverty, etc., etc. and the ONLY thing those fantasy wars ever accomplished was to infringe upon other people's rights.

For instance, the War on Drugs has led to the use of roving roadblocks where police search your car without a warrant under the pretext of looking for drugs, alcohol, proof of insurance, etc. It is wholly unconstitutional and we don't need the Supreme Court to interpret it for us. It is a warrantless search.

Now, back to the topic at hand. As I understand it, the Dream Act would benefit those children who grew up in the United States. And the big deal is that the parents entered this country "illegally." As a constitutionalist, I learned that:

"The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment, and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it.

No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it." 16 Am Jur 2d. Sec. 177 late 2d, Sec. 256

Since the Constitution calls upon Congress to "establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization" (Article 1 Section 8) and they have not done so - which is why so many people are here doing business with WILLING "legal" Americans, then we have a lot of discussion to do here. All I hear is that the xenophobes want everyone to be "legal," but they oppose any effort to legitimize those who want to be legal, but have no "legal" avenue to pursue.

There is a solution to this. And if there is any interest in this subject, I'll check back and do more on this thread, telling you what must be done in order to win. The politicking is okay... you might get some results in a decade or so and AFTER jeopardizing a lot of people's constitutional Rights. There is an easier way.... if you're interested.

I'm interested.

true, but then the reason they hate us is because a lot of people have been waiting in line to enter legally and yet with the dream act it would be like cutting in line. that's why.

Not really c'est la vie, most legal immigrants feel for us. They realize the system is broken and the reason why undocumented immigration exists is because it's broken. Most of us had no line to wait in. For DREAM in particular, we didn't choose to be Americans, that's all that we really know but we're kind of stuck in this situation.


The opposition to DREAM tends to be poor and uneducated. Most rely on government programs to get by (check out alicrap). Most don't work and expect government handouts and as a result are at the bottom of the societal totem poll. Instead of trying to make something of their of lives by either getting an education or god forbid a job, they keep the one group below them down. Then's there's flat out racism and fear of anything new which is also pretty rampant in the few with jobs.

Nothing pisses them off more than a successful immigrant or an immigrant who speaks English but chooses to speak another language with their family at home or on the weekend out with their family. They have issues that I won't even bother address on here.

Forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical of your proposal Mr. Smith but what proposal do you have that hasn't been debated in the halls of Congress or proposed by some politician, whether the politician may be right wing or left wing?

While we welcome newcomers to our forum and encourage discussion, we do attract a lot of impostors, mainly from our nemesis, the Alitards. If you hail from their forum, then you're welcome as long as you can keep the discussion civil. Also, we refuse to debate the merits of the DREAM Act. Our goal is to secure its passage; we're not here to discuss if it should be passed or not.

I would like to hear what Hannibal Smith has to say and what easier solution he thinks we have other than the usual political ways.

the people waiting in line to become legalized don't feel for us because for example people waiting in line from the philippines and mexico have to wait a lot more years than someoone from another country and that is beacaus of all the illegal immigrants. see we make it harder for other people to be able to come here legally. that's what I was tryna say. yeah...okay bye.

I'm glad that I have your attention and that some are willing to listen. I'm not here to debate you on the merits of the Dream Act. I'll give you my personal spin:

Since the government has not provided a legal avenue whereby many foreigners can come here "legally," I feel that the waiting in line analogy is dishonest. Many people are here through no fault of their own and have become Americans for all intents and purposes.

What I am here to tell you applies to winning your own battle with the Dream Act as well as negating the entire illegal versus legal immigration debate. A few years ago I used to parrot the conservative line... illegal immigration was costing the U.S., Americans were paying for health care, welfare, etc. while "illegals" as they call them were living off the fat of the land.

Then, while researching this subject so that I could take on any potential left wing, Latino or other immigrant representatives, the facts simply weren't there to sustain the arguments the right had made. For instance:

Immigrants pay $80,000 more in taxes than they receive in benefits over the course of their lives. And they pay the income tax as well:

http://www.ilctr.org/news/pdf/imm_ta...of_welfare.pdf

http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_im...on_062007.html

I realize a lot of you won't agree with me on some issues, but on our smaller state - wide militia board, I have a challenge for ANY person to show me a single error of fact. To date, no serious takers. You can get my view about immigration at this link:

http://www.freepowerboards.com/usmil...-about144.html

Anyway, since the hucksters won't come to me, I go directly to them. I go onto right wing and other militia boards along with all those far right sites that try to fool the people. And in trying to shout me down, they end up destroying their own forums and venues.

Well, I don't agree with every facet of people wanting to immigrate here. At the same time, the people who oppose the Dream Act, amnesty and immigration in general are relying on a program initiated by David Duke, of the Ku Klux Klan in the 1970s.

You have to bear something in mind: the politicians have their minds made up. People like Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, etc. all HATE the traditional American way of life ( self reliance, limited government, belief in God, Rights and Liberties that are bestowed upon man by their God, etc.) while the far right politicians are fearful of anyone or anything which appears to be different than they are.

Now, I seriously doubt that deep down any of you agree with the far left on every issue and honestly, the right wing does not believe all that the pols on the right are advocating. For instance, ten years ago, it was the militias who warned against an all intrusive government. We were against the so - called "Patriot Act" before it was ever introduced into Congress. By the same token, I think that there are people in this audience who can see the advantage of having the Second Amendment.

So, the short version of what I am advocating is that you begin to use the information you will find in the links I'm giving to convince the people who make up the critics of the Dream Act, amnesty, and any other immigration proposals which will bring this ugly chapter to a close.

We have to show the myths upon which they are predicating their beliefs. We have to show them how their "solutions" are worse than the problems they hope to resolve. And you have to show those people who are your political enemies that you share common viewpoints about other issues... not all of us intend to vote for Obama or McCain. Most of all, the powers that be (i.e. groups like the Council on Foreign Relations - of which McCain and Obama are members of) are using these issues to not only divide the people, but to institute a super sized government which NOBODY can put up a resistance against.

Again, the Readers Digest version of my argument to you: Wage a public relations war against your enemies, aimed at changing their minds with undisputable facts. Unite with them on issues of common concern. Dismantle the myths. And once you've solved their little "problem" for them, the opposition goes away and the politicians will vote FOR some pro - immigration measures.

Sorry for being so long winded, but this is a very in depth topic and requires a lot of discussion.

What about many of us with pending family sponsorship petitions? We're technically "waiting in line," but that doesn't mean we're not sympathetic towards Dreamers. If anything, most of us would prefer Dream over other avenues of legalization.

Also, I think the waiting period is determined by other factors, such as the amount of minority population already present in the U.S., and amount of applications received. I could be wrong on this, but it doesn't make sense that illegal immigration is the cause for processing backlog, when they're not even sure on how many illegals are present in the country.

Cestlavie, please use punctuations and spell check before posting. This is an online discussion forum, not a yahoo chat room.


Now, onto important things,

Hannibal, I understand your point, and your suggestion reminds me of the countless hours of CSPAN debates many of us have watched. In short, the so called "indisputable facts" are in fact, disputable in the eyes of Dream opponents. At the end of the day, all they see is an "amnesty that rewards illegals." Why are they so foolish to not even acknowledge our stronghold arguments you ask? Prejudice is blinding.

K- Man wrote:

"Why are they so foolish to not even acknowledge our stronghold arguments you ask? Prejudice is blinding."

There are a myriad of reasons that some people don't acknowledge the arguments made by people who are pro - immigration on one level or another. For instance, if you are letting the right know you are an Obama supporter, that alone would cause them to turn off the volume and not hear what you're saying.

For some it is racism; others it is the desperation of having just one victory in their lifetimes. But, what the people opposed to immigration need to be convinced of is two things:

1) You have the same thoughts and fears as they do on SOME issues

2) The "solutions" they propose are not really solutions at all. For example, the right is ALWAYS watching to see how close we are to Martial Law. For those who watch that issue, it is not a matter of IF, but WHEN. And the right has a major weakness. They do not understand the circumstances of HOW Martial Law will be employed nor WHO will be conducting it. In my opinion, it will follow one path:

A) The loony right will get the wall built around the United States.

B) The courts will then authorize house to house search and seizure of not only so - called "illegal aliens," but guns and other contraband as well.

IF the radical right is told this enough times, in enough venues, they will stop and begin to re-evaluate their solutions. Again, my premise is to eliminate the opposition and the issue will resolve itself. The politicians would vote FOR pro - immigration measures if the immigrant lobbies would only do two things:

Show some support for the more conservative legislators and get rid of the xenophobes who are hiding behind old KKK theories from the past.